November 5, 2009
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A CONVERSATION AT CHURCH CAMP
A CONVERSATION AT CHURCH CAMP
13 year-old-me to Counselor at Church Camp: My mom was diagnosed with Schizophrenia. I keep praying for her to get better, but she just keeps getting worse. Why won’t God make her better?
Camp Counselor: I can think of two possible reasons. The first is that it might be God’s plan for her to have Schizophrenia.
Me: Why would God have a plan like that?
Camp Counselor: God works in mysterious ways that we can’t understand. We might not be able to see it, but God might be able to use her disease to bring about great good in other people’s lives.
Me: Ok…what’s the other possible reason?
Camp Counselor: Well, God says that if we have faith the size of a mustard seed that we can move mountains. Maybe you don’t have enough faith.
Me: So my choices are; God wants my mom to be sick because it’s his plan, or it’s my fault because I don’t have enough faith?
Camp Counselor: Yes
Me: That’s pretty fucked up.
I didn’t really say that because I didn’t talk that way then. I do talk that way now, however, and what amazes me is that after hundreds of exchanges like this during my formative years I still went on to Seminary and became a minister instead of asking God to go create a cliff and then jump off of it. It actually took me another 20 years to allow myself to see how seriously disturbed that kind of rhetoric is.Perhaps it’s in our DNA to want to believe that God has an intricate plan that involves every aspect of our lives. I think it makes us feel more safe and secure and allows us to attribute meaning to events that seem arbitrary and random. I believed strongly that God had a detailed plan for my life for a long time. However, after years in the ministry dealing with people who had endured unspeakable tragedy I finally had to admit that it was impossible for me to hold onto that belief without concluding that God is a sick bastard.
I mentioned this conclusion to my small group at church the other evening. I said that my position is that the world can be a bad place and if you live in the world bad things might very well happen to you regardless of whether you’re good or bad or how you label yourself. I went on to say that I think God’s “plan” is for us to strive to have the positive attributes we ascribe to him and that outside of that, I don’t think God gets involved in the ins and outs of our daily lives.
Amid gasps of horror I decided to press the point. I went on to say that as a group we spent a lot of time praying for sick people and that, in my opinion, it’s probably kind of a waste of time. I suggested that it might be better to just stand around and hold hands and hope their doctor went to a good medical school.
For me, believing that God created us but maintains a “hands off” policy with our daily lives doesn’t make him less loving. In fact, the thought of a God that manipulates events like a puppeteer controlling a marionette according to a plan only he is capable of understanding is the antithesis of love.
What do you think? Does God have a detailed plan for your life?
Comments (35)
You’ll like it here on the dark side. We get to sleep in on Sundays.
I guess this is why I do not belong to any groups. I never really get kicked out and my friends consider it a naughty thing to hang out with me. Seriously…Fantastic blog. Truly.
If people really thought about religious platitudes they spouted, they would realize they are really fucked up. I’m at pretty much the same point you are. I don’t think God has a plan that involves giving a specific person schizophrenia or breast cancer, or a father who beats them for that matter. I believe He created the world in all its complexity, and disease and free will are a part of it, but there is no master plan for each person. Its random and all that really matters is how we deal with whatever our life hands us. Awesome post!
Terrific post.
Interesting and excellent post. I’m kind of a spiritual mutt all around, but the candidness here appeals to me. thanks.
Gee, that camp counselor was one cold individual. What a thing to say a kid. It was basically telling you that you had a 50% chance of being responsible for your mother’s illness. I’m glad that even at that age, you knew the guy/gal was warped! Excellent post, and I hope your group remembers the rules again next week!
Kathi
I think that we worship the same God.
Probably best if I don’t comment. I’ll just rec.
“just stand around and hold hands and hope the doctor went to a good medical school.” LOVE IT! My seed of permanent dissatisfaction: when I was in junior high my mom dragged me to a new church, a Southern Baptist one, where upstairs in the Sunday School they taught us that divorce is a sin and people who remarry are committing adultery. Downstairs my mom was going to the Single’s Sunday School class, where she met and married her (insanely religious) current husband. Yowza, it was hard for a 14 yo to wrap her head around that one.
@transvestite_rabbit -
You’re such a good reccer.
I have had many a similar religious experiences, unfortunately so I relate. Great post.
Excellent post! I’ve had similiar experiences. Keep doing what you do, you are an encouragement to people like me. You make more sense and are more honest than most religious people I’ve known.
Hey, if you get excommunicated at least you’ll have fodder for your next blog.
HUGS!
@Bad_Dogma - Great comment!
Love it!!! YOU ROCK!!!!
we had this priest once, Fr. Greer, he was awesome and welcomed the hard questions, with which he sometimes agreed although in the end, he said that’s why ti’s called faith. Of course we’re Episcopalians, in some circles that’s considered the dark side. Anyway, Go you!!
I’ll go with you on a lot of this. It is a messed up place and inexplicable things happen and there are some pyschotic explanations to “explic” them. That’s not helpful, or accurate. Maybe prayer is a group standing around hoping for something that is beyond their reach to influence. Is that so very bad.? As to a waste of time, look what else we waste time on? I don’t think there’s any need to bloody each other up over things that we etiher weren’t there to see firsthand, or we’ll find out with final certainty at the end of the journey after we can’t change the outcome. Being prepared seems like a good plan of action, though others see it altogether differently.
I can’t believe someone would actually say that to a kid. Yes, God WANTS your mom to suffer a horrible debilitating mental disease that tears up your family. Yeeeees. I’m impressed you hung in there with us! Also, prayer is a weird thing – I think it is better to approach it almost as an exercise in obedience, rather than a Christmas list. You know what I want to learn to do? Meditate. I recently read Eat, Pray, Love and I think as religious people we are really missing out on an aspect of our spirituality by totally ignoring meditation. Maybe I’ll do a study next semester and we’ll learn together!!!
Buddhist teach something along the same lines. Suffering is here for a reason. Religion is a grasp at the unknown.
I wonder too about the weird stuff I was told about god & that it is all whacked.
“GET THE TAR & FEATHERS, HENRY! WE GOT US A HEATHEN RIGHT HERE IN RIVER CITY!” bwahahahahaha!
You know, if you start your own church, there are awesome tax deductions. And you could share that wealth by ordaining us, your faithful followers…
I think I check my blog at the right time. LOL. i am taking a Religions in America class at a local community college. i am actually working to get a Accounting degree. this religion class was an elective in Humanities, and it was a choice I made because, I love religion and philosophy, and live in ahouse full of those types of books. Plus it was as far from math and numbers as I could get.
However, now I have become disappointed in my class. So far we have done a chapter a week and writting 2 essays each week. i loved it, it came easy for me and I thrived in the class. Since fall break they instructor, whom is a baptist minister, has chopped up the weekly assignments, to the point that ever 2-3 weeks I have 2 essays due, and for the remainder of the class we are focusin only on the christian aspect of religion in America. I am so disappointed and plan on telling the insturctor so when I have to do the end of semister survey.
Question for you, have you ever thought of teaching a class like this? Why do you think an instructor would skip over all the eastern and numerous other religions in this books and focus only on the Christian points? I was so looking forward to being the odd person in this class, which I am the only one who isn’t a Christian in the entire class.
Many religions beleive that God left humans alone long ago. African American religions, even baptist and other factions of Christianity, believe God left humans alone, and African Americans work with closer lesser spirits to rely stuff to God.
Go on heathen and enjoy your life and maybe creating a Chruch wouldnt be a bad idea. The business side of it is fairly simple. The Tax benefits are even better.
Have a good day
Cris
I totally agree with you. And in teaching our 6 year old to pray, I NEVER say “please make {so and so} better.” What I do pray for is comfort for the individuals involved, and pray for acceptance of whatever His will may be. It’s tough when people try to speak for God. I also believe that God could’nt care less what team wins what football game, and think it’s crazy that they show players praying for anything on television. Give me a break. Anyway, everyone knows that God is a Saints fan!
the “edit” box is too slow. I meant couldn’t.
Religion causes so much pain and suffering, so much division, so much irrational thought. Not faith so much as religion. Once humans add their interpretation to what god is (isn’t) want’s (doesn’t want) likes (frowns on) etc. it becomes an us vs. them world instantly. Your faith can’t be right cause it would negate my beliefs.
I can’t subscribe to a god that would hate some and love others based on who they love etc. Could you have a child that was a good person, lived their life in a way that helped others, and was doing the best they could to be a good person, and then if they came home and said they were gay, could you throw them out of your life? Can you beleive in a god, or more accurately a religion, that would want you to?
A wonderful post. I don’t think any deity could ask more of us than do work in our own power to make things better than we found them. To ask anything more is to ask more than we are capable of as humans. To ask anything less is to ask us to relinquish the will that makes us human.
I really, really look forward to hearing about the “same God” discussion.
You’re getting a lot of responses from unbelievers telling you that you’re on the right track. Think about that.
@NightCometh - I am thinking about it. I value their opinion.
@NightCometh - By the way, although I’m in the ministry, I’m not a pastor. I’ve been a Minister of Music either full or part time for 36 years. My Bachelor’s and Master’s degrees are in Church Music and I must say that your rendition of Ave Maria was really lovely. Good job!
@ColdSkivvies - Thanks. Where did you go to seminary?
@NightCometh - I went to Oklahoma Baptist University for my undergrad and Southwestern Theological Seminary in Fort Worth for my masters.
@NightCometh - LOL. I just noticed you’re from Fort Worth so I imagine you know right where Southwestern is.
I can top your 50% chances. When I was 13, I was told by a member of the church I went to at the time, that it was my family’s fault that my dad got brain damage. If we had more faith, then he would get up and walk. I was mad at God and the church for awhile after that idiot.
But it’s interesting, people claim that God is a sick God, because He doesn’t heal people the way we want him to, or because a follower of him says something stupid. But I’ve never heard anyone say that evolution is a sick theory, because my father failed to evolved. Is it evolution’s fault that my father was a diabetic for 40 years and was never treated for it so it damaged his brain stem? Why is it God’s fault then?
I have known many disabled people. I had a mission partner attempt suicide while on the mission trip. She is bi polar. I met one guy who had no legs. Neither of the two were bitter that God made them or caused them to be in the condition that they were in. They asked God for healing and He gave it to them. But He didn’t heal the body, He healed the mind, they became at peace with the disease, and did not let it prevent them from doing what needed to be done. Just because God does not heal the way we want him to. Does not mean that healing did not or could not happen.
I realize this post was written a long time ago, but I saw your post on revelife and I just want to say that I think you are very brave and have a remarkably strong character not only for being so honest and critically thinking as you have, but for enduring the life you have lived. Sounds to me like you are gaining peace of mind, bordering Deism and possibly on your way to becoming Agnostic. Keep your mind and heart open and perhaps the truth will set you free. I hope your life has improved since this post.
@DrummingMediocrity - Thank you so much for your comment and for friending me! I think it is incredibly interesting that out of all of the people who commented on that post over at Revelife, you are the only person who has acknowledged what I shared about my childhood and had a kind word to say. The “Christians” on that site are all too busy trying to make sure I understand that I’ve abandoned the faith and am obviously headed to Hell because I disagree with them, to have any sense of compassion. I really appreciate your kind words. Yes, my life has improved 1000 percent and although the “Revelifers” would find this incomprehensible, I’m quite happy being the resident Xanga heretic and wouldn’t change for the world. I think Diesm is probably a pretty good description of where I am theologically at the moment. Hey, if it’s good enough for Thomas Jefferson, it’s good enough for me. Thanks again for your comment!
@ProudToBeAChristianFruitcake - Thank you for stopping by and for your comment. Your question about evolution is interesting. I would note however, that evolution in a process not a deity. You can’t ascribe intent to process but you can certainly ascribe intent to a deity. That subject aside, it seems to me that people may be reading through my post a bit too quickly. I didn’t say that God is a sick God because he didn’t heal my mother the way I thought he should. I said that is the conclusion one could come too if you believe that God intervenes in some cases but not others. For me it makes the most sense to conclude that God allows suffering because because he gives us free will and that the logical conclusion is that because of our state of free will that he doesn’t intervene in our daily lives. So, I’m not blaming God for what happened to my mother, it’s just the way life worked out. Obviously millions of believers would provide scores of anecdotal evidence for God’s intervention. My position would be that if a person prays for “X” to happen and it does happen that they are going to attribute it to the prayer and God’s intervention. I believe both bad things and good things happen without God’s intervention. I’m certainly not going to convince you of this and you certainly aren’t going to convince me of your view point, but I thinks it’s great to be able to have civil discussion about our faith in a forum like this.