January 3, 2006


  • EDIT: Although I try to be as inoffensive as possible when I write about my personal spiritual journey, I understand that it is impossible not to offend someone, somewhere. I often get email when I write about spiritual matters. Some are positive, some are negative, and all are appreciated. I did get an email today about the post below that was so intriguing, I thought I would post excerpts from it. I’ve pasted it in below the original post, and at the authors’ request, I have allowed them to remain anonymous.


     


    MY JOURNEY AWAY FROM FUNDAMENTALISM, PART 2: WHY I NOW HAVE THE FUNDAMENTALIST HEBBIE-JEBBIES.


     


    I’ve been writing about growing up as a Southern Baptist fundamentalist, and how I’ve come to be an unabashed liberal with views and beliefs very different from those I grew up with. In part 1 (please read before you read this post), I discussed what I loved about growing up in that environment. In part 2, I’m going to talk about why I will NEVER go back to it.


     


    This is how the transformation took place: I was walking down the Damascus Road when, suddenly, I was blinded by a brilliant light. Al Franken appeared to me and asked me why I was persecuting Democrats.  Ok, maybe that didn’t happen, but for those of you who are thinking that it must have been a singular defining moment in my life, I’m afraid I’m going to disappoint you. It actually was a very slow process that started back in college (cue harp music and wavy image as I travel back in time).


     


    I mentioned in part 1 that my church was the very center of my life as a pre-teen and teenager.  During this time I got quite an indoctrination into fundamentalist rhetoric (Note: I said “fundamentalist rhetoric” NOT Southern Baptist theology. I have nothing against Southern Baptists. My issues are with fundamentalism, and I understand that there is a  difference – so don’t send me ugly emails). One of the basic tenants of fundamentalism is an “us-against-them” mentality. I was taught (subtly and not so subtly) that anyone who did not believe like we did was part of the “world” and was the enemy. This included, but was not limited too: Democrats, homosexuals, anyone who smoked, drank, or danced, anyone who was divorced, and anyone who was not of the Christian faith (and other protestant denominations were highly suspect). Jews were not the enemy but they were to be pitied because they failed to recognize Jesus as the Messiah, and we had to take their place as God’s chosen people. We were taught that if we prayed hard enough and sent money to “Jews for Jesus” maybe they still had some hope.  This rhetoric was masked in the teaching that “God hates sin, but loves the sinner and that we also should love the sinner but do everything in our power to convert them.”  It’s a nice thought, but unfortunately, once we got out from in front of the pulpit it wasn’t unusual to hear something more along the lines of “I hope one of them faggots makes a pass at me, ‘cause I’ll bust his head open with a ball bat.”


     


    I actually had the concept in High School that most of the rest of the world believed like I did. It was with this belief and the background described above that I went off to college. As I mentioned in part 1, I got an excellent liberal arts education at OBU and many of the professors were intent on showing us kids from the heartland of the Bible belt that there was a bigger world out there. I took Western Civilization and Literature and World Religions. I was shocked to find out that my religious beliefs actually put me in the minority when it came to the rest of the world. I began to have a very hard time getting my head around the concept that there were people all over the world who held beliefs that were very different from mine and they were just as committed to their religion and the belief that they were right as I was.  I had always been told that anyone who was not a “born again Christian” was going to hell. “God doesn’t send anyone to hell” I was told, “people choose hell by default because of their unbelief.”  I would protest by asking “So…you’re telling me that a child raised in China as a Buddhist, and for whom Buddhism is central to their culture and their lives, and who is unlikely to ever consider another possibility because of that culture, is going to hell because of that belief?”  The answer would be “If they ever had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Christ and refused to believe it, yes, they are going to hell.”  That made me really glad I was born in Oklahoma and not Beijing.


     


    My little world was beginning to expand. As part of my college experience, I began to read authors like Dostoevsky, Franz Kafka, and Thomas Pynchon, who had VERY different world views from mine. I also moved in with someone who was supposed to be the enemy. That’s right…I ended up with a gay roommate. I had a whole list of stereotypes in my head about what he was supposed to be like, and DAMMIT he didn’t live up to a single one of them! He didn’t try to “bring me over to the dark side.” He was kind, and generous, and caring, and would do anything for anyone. In fact, he had the nerve to end up being one of the most decent and honorable people I’ve ever known. I knew it was ok to like him, but that I was supposed to hate his sin. I just had a hard time hating anything about him.


     


    I left college with my fundamentalism shaky but still loosely in tact. Then I got into the actual ministry, and boy was I in for a surprise.  I won’t go into a great deal of explanation here other than to say, I had it in my head that all “Church People” were good, decent, loving folks. I quickly discovered that they could, in fact, be the most downright evil people I’d ever met. For a story about an incident (typical of numerous incidents that occurred early in my years in the ministry) that had a huge impact on me, read this post:  Black Kids at a Lock-In, Oh My!


     


    It didn’t happen overnight. As the years went by, the core beliefs I used to hold onto so tightly began to ravel away. I could go on for pages and pages talking about how specific incidents began to move my ideology toward the left, such as the incident of a 16 year old girl in one of my churches who got pregnant, and without access to abortion, and in fear of her parents, attempted to end her life by drinking Drano, and how that shook my stance on abortion rights.  I’ll save all those stories for a rainy day, but let’s just say as the days passed by I had a harder and harder time holding onto the beliefs of my childhood.


     


    I tried too though. I tried really hard. My job in the ministry was to continue to teach those beliefs to each new generation and I began to do a very poor job of fulfilling that calling. I wanted out, but it was all I had ever known and I had no idea what else to do. As a child, if I were to confront a problem head on, like my father for example; that confrontation could get me the back of a hand. So I became very good at passive aggressive behavior. In fact, I’m still the national poster child, but at least I know this about myself. Again, I won’t go into details, but let’s just say I began to engage in some very self-destructive behaviors that took the decision for me to leave the ministry out of my hands and put it in the hands of others.


     


    I did abandon those behaviors, and I’ve been out of the ministry now for 13 years. Over that time my views have moved more and more to the left everyday. Hey, if it’s good enough for Supreme Court Justices, It’s good enough for me.


     


    The odd thing is that I’ve never abandoned my faith. How’s that you say? I think that what finally dawned on me is that there is a difference between faith and religion. I still wanted to be a person of faith, but I no longer wanted to be religious. Faith embraces tolerance. Religion abhors it. Faith can acknowledge theological differences. Religion labels people as heretics and infidels. Faith embraces life, while throughout history; more people have been killed in the name of religion than for any other reason. In response to part 1, my friend misinterpreted1 left this comment: “The church has never saved my life, but my faith definitely has on more than one occasion.” I think she hit the nail on the head. It took me a long time to separate the rhetoric I grew up with and some of the people who espoused it, from my notion of a God who loves me, and wants me to treat people with love, respect, and dignity.  But I have, and my faith in God has never been stronger.


     


    I simply no longer possess the arrogance to assume my particular brand of faith has all the answers, and I’ve learned to respect people who believe differently than I do.


     


    I’ve been told that it’s impossible to be a Christian and be a liberal. For me, it would be impossible to be a Christian and be anything else.


     


    Email referenced in the edit:


     


    I guess I am one of those fundamentalists you so obviously disdain… and what difference is there between you, who now believes he’s so much above the hypocrisy of the church, as you look down your enlightened nose at us? In my experience and at my church I attend the people are loving and kind and reach out to those not “like” us .We would welcome a teenage pregnant girl and love and care for her as she carries the life in her – not encourage her to add to her own pain by destroying it. I feel sorry for you that you have possibly never attended a Bible-loving, Christ worshipping fellowship of believers whose only desire is to please Him and not get ahead in the church ladder. I don’t know where you served in “ministry” as you put it, but unfortunately, I think you may have done more harm than good. The ministry is not a “job” as you put it – it’s a calling for which most that are called suffer hardship and difficulty but do so with joy – I speak from experience. …That’s about all I have to say. I’ll just close by saying you really need to get off your self-important high-horse and realize you’re just a sinner like the rest of us and just pray when you face your Creator He’ll be happy with all you’re doing and saying! Ok just read that and it sounds a lot harsher than I meant it to but maybe you should go back and read your own blog and see how incredibly arrogant you sound!


     


    Naaaa…that wasn’t harsh. In fact, such an outpouring of Christian love has left me feeling all warm and tingly inside. What do you think my dear fellow bloggers?


     

Comments (31)

  • Excellent post, Mark.

    “Faith embraces tolerance.  Religion abhors it.”   -   I agree with that totally, but had not thought about it like that until reading your words. 

    You have been on quite a journey, and being a Christian and a liberal should not be such a foreign concept to people.

    Kathi

  • I’ve read nearly everything you’ve ever written, here and elsewhere. This is, by far, the most raw and real and true and beautiful thing. I’m glad you set this up with the benefits you gained from fundamentalist teaching, beacuse it really showed the truth of how that cord unravels.

    And it does, for everyone who thinks about their beliefs. There seem to be 3 responses: Grasp at the threads and become a serious fundamentalist, become bitter about the unraveling and become a violent reactionary, and…you. Learn from the error of the teachings you learned and in turn, taught, and become better, stronger, and more real for it.

    Reading your journey is so interesting to me, because I see that we’ve been on exactly the same one (with different road signs and different police along the way.) You were not such a bad teacher of those concepts, Dad. But they started to fall apart for me too, the breaking point being my muslim and gay friends and my trip abroad. Without a cacoon, the world will get you pretty quickly, and you might just see that other people are happy just the way they are.

    I’m rambling, but you’ve inspired me. Perhaps I’ll write my own path through faith. Someone who reads your page was asking recently what it is I actually believe. Well, there’s your answer. That. Exactly that.

  • I was raised Catholic and remember being taught that Catholics were the only ‘true’ religion. Even as a kid I thought it was weird that my friends would go to hell just because they were raised in another faith. My views have changed as I have gotten older and seen more of the real world. I don’t consider myself religious either, I consider myself spiritual, because as you said, religion is very narrowminded and intolerant to other beliefs. I have explored other churches, but have not found one at this point that I am happy with. One church is the ‘cool’ place to go and be seen, others are a little too charismatic for my Catholic upbringing that I can’t quite seem to shed entirely. We went to a church once where we saw people sitting in the front pew looking very pious, and Husband said that the guy works for one of the companies he deals with, and they guy is as unethical and crooked as they come. That part is hard for me to deal with, people who are pious on Sunday, but rob you blind the rest of the week. I still do attend Mass once in a while, but I will keep searching until I find a church that is a good fit for me.

  • Magnificent writing of your journey~and superb responses written up above and I am certain, more to come.

    Quote: “I actually had the concept in High School that most of the rest of the world believed like I did.” This is surely the pyschology behind isolationism, religious or politically, that fundalmentalism, at its’ core, needs to flourish. It is the Gift of Divinity to be granted insight into the deliverance from the basis of intolerance and the tool of the lesser to embrace its’ delusion. Like the girlchild of want and and the boychild of ignorance beneath the robe of Dicken’s ghost: “Beware them both, but most of all beware this boy,” the one who frees himself from the chain of fundamental self-aggrandizement may be considered, indeed, blessed under the auspices of a Greater Spirit.

    Peace~

  • I’m sure I speak for everyone when I say that it was a pleasure to read. I’m always impressed with those who are willing to question their dogmatically held beliefs; any belief that can’t hold up to examination isn’t one worth maintaining, imo. It’s just sad that so many see any criticism of their beliefs as an attack, and instead of being reflective, they get scared and hold onto them more tightly. That’s what I think we see happening in this country as we become more pluralistic and people are more careful in ensuring that the government stays out of the business of religion, especially in promoting one at the exlcusion of all others. But, I digress.

    Thank you for sharing your journey, Mark. It’s a journey I wish many others would take.

  • I not only survived all the way to the end, I hung on every word.  Your belief system seems to echo my own in so many ways.  At the forefront, how a lot of church-going-self-professed-”Christians” are so very un-Christian-like in their treatment of others, their narrow-mindedness, and their short-sightedness.  I’m not sure they’ve read the same Bible that I have…. or maybe I just don’t prefer their interpretation.  Then there are the fundamentalists that preach hate instead of love.  I must have somehow skipped that chapter (?)  Personally, I’ve always viewed Christ as a liberal. 

    xoxoxo

  • I was born and raised a Catholic, and while I doubted and disregarded many things I was taught, I coninued to attend Mass regularly> I was unable to let go, for whatever reason, even tough my pagan spiritual leanings had already taken hold. But week after week, I found myself apologizing to my preteen daughter, and explaining to her why i disagreed with the sermon. Something was definitely wrong with that picture! Now I am fully immersed in my own spiritual practice, and the church is on the fringes of my life – in other words, except for weddings, funerals, and Christmas at my parents, I stay away.

  • Nicely done, Mark, and probably publishable.

  • I have so much to say I hardly know where to start but first let me say a lot of what you say lends itself to blame the Southern Baptist and having grown up Independent Baptist myself I really never saw this side of it that you talk about. Not only did I grow up Baptist but I also grew up in an all white town historically known for KKK rallies and yet despite all that I dont ever remember a time when the lines of race and religion crossed in a way that would cause the friction you describe. It would be insane for me to say there werent racial issues or that there werent racists in my church but I never saw them as being church based racial issues only people based racial issues with people who happened to attend my church and it all boils down to the old addage that we dont go to church because we are perfect christians, we go because we are flawed and we recognize our need to improve.

    I do not go to a Baptist church anymore but it is not because I became “disillusioned” with the Baptists, but rather I just found a place where I could worship and dig deeper into the Word without all the politics and heirarchy of the Baptist church along with its Wednesday night business meetings and casserole dinners. My deepest spiritual growth came when I left the Baptist church and began attending Calvary Chapel (my Pastor studied under Chuck Smith) and if I have learned nothing in my life I have learned that people are just people and some of them go to church…even the ones with opinions I dont necessarily agree with, but God says to be discerning and he says not to forsake fellowship with other christians…and so I go.

    Its kinda sad any time I hear that someone has the potential to lead others to the faith but they choose not to because of past conflict or because some issue at a “church” rubbed them the wrong way. I’ve read enough of your posts that I believe you to be of strong faith and strong character but I must admit I am confused about how you came to the decision to step away from ministry. Either you were not called to begin with or you were called and you are now having a Nineveh experience.  

    I know thats a kind of leap from someone (me) who is making accusations based on waaaaay to little information but it sounds like your lock in was exactly the kind of thing God would have been proud of and those freaks who admonished you were the ones who should have been re-evaluating their actions. Maybe Im just speaking from my own experience with the trials in my life and all of this really has nothing to do with you because it seems like the closer I get to Jesus the more threatning I am to Satan and the harder he tried to trip me up and get me off track. So the more I suffer the more I think I must be on the right path.

    Your the one who said “us against them” mentality…and your right, a lot of people operate like that and that is so wrong but who is going to point us int he right direction if the people who recognize that it is wrong dont do it? Who is going to stand up for your gay room mate and tell those close minded people that your gay room mates sin isnt any bigger than their own…afterall, how many of those same finger pointers had sex with their spouse before the wedding…do they not see its the exact same thing? The commandments were not given in order of importance, someone needs to teach those “fundamentalits” that lying and sex outside of marriage are both wrong just because Billy is gay doesnt mean he is more wrong that they are.

    I know Im babbling and hoggin your blog but ultimately I agree with you…on every count including the part about religion…Ive said it a million times, church is just a building, religion is just a practice but true faith is a committed relationship with God….but all that having been said if we are truely walking with God and we are truely following his commandments, we know that he is calling us to fellowship with other christians and sit under the leadership of those he has pointed us to….AND he is calling us to lead those who he has brought to us. 

    I think the real question is: Did God tell you to step out of ministry? ..or was it just easier for you? ..or was it merely for a season like Paul had in the desert?

    I apologise in advance if my rambling is way off base, I blame it on the blonde hair.

  • You also said: “I simply no longer possess the arrogance to assume my particular brand of faith has all the answers, and I’ve learned to respect people who believe differently than I do.” and after I logged out today I realized I forgot to comment on the one thing I most wanted to comment on, and that is, I agree. No particular brand of faith has all the answers and while I do believe there is only one way to heaven I also believe many different people will find that one way to heaven by walking their own unique path.

  • RYC: Answers. 

    #1.  I’m flicking her nose.  She said that when she drinks, parts of her face go numb.  Teeth first, then lips, then nose.  I told her to inform me when her nose became numb so I could flick it.  Rick captured the moment!

    #2.  That restraining order does not apply on holidays.  Weird, I know.

  • I think when we all stand before the throne we’re going to have an “I coulda had a V-8″ moment and smack ourselves on the heat for making Christianity so complicated. Over the centuries we have written prayers and rituals, made doctrine and rules, written Books of Discipline, when Christianity is really so simple….Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and spirit and love your neighbor as yourself….the greatest really is love. There is no greater sacrifice than to lay down your life for another, which is the fundamental essence of Christianity. He loved us enough to take our sins on Himself and die in our place. Jesus himself associated with prostitutes and tax collectors, so why do we let people of “the church” tell us we can’t associate with gays and Muslims? This is the most thought-provoking entry you have ever done.   

  • You state things I’ve often thought so well that it’s a bit eerie.  I can’t believe a loving God would send anyone to hell, and yes, I know the Bible verses people will quote to prove that he does.  “My” God doesn’t do that.  And if I’m wrong in the end, then he’s not someone I want to associate with anyway.

    I’m sure that thought keeps him awake nights :)  

  • My dear boy, you’ve said it for me.  Raised Southern Baptist, I left it for several years.  I’m back in a church again that’s SB because it’s more convenient for me and that’s where my son with whom I live goes.  My other children have distanced themselves from the fundalism.  Whenever I’ve tried to express my stance, I was never able to feel secure in the answers I gave them.  Now all I have to do it copy your two-part posting and tell them “this is how I feel”  Thank you for doing the job for me so perfectly.

  • It was a long journey, but I’m glad you’ve arrived here.

  • If only more so-called Christians would put two and two together the way you have.

  • Raised A/G but I began questioning the dogma at a very early age when I was told that animals don’t have souls and therefore wouldn’t go to heaven. I eventually came to realize that heaven and hell were the same place, because my idea of hell would be to spend eternity with all those self-righteous, hypocritical bigots who were so sure they were going to heaven.

  • I’ll be the first to comment on your edit:

    I think that for the first three sentences, my response would have been: “See, I don’t think you’re REALLY a fundamentalist, then.” But then all the rest of it comes pouring out. You get the “us versus them” mentality that you spoke of previously, and you get condemned to hell. I guarantee you’d welcome that girl in, tell her just how stupid she was, and quietly and accidentally encourage that Drano.

    You’ve proven his point, oh anonymous “minister.” You’ve ministered here as well. Don’t foget that your calling extends outside your church. And don’t forget that whole “..and the greatest of these is love” thing, either.

    I can’t seem to close this comment, I keep scrolling up to see the e-mail and getting more boggled by the claims this guy (obviously a man, as I’m sure women in the ministry is taboo as well.) Claiming that you did more harm than good as a minister? Wowzer.

    E-mailer, if you could, ask God to hang on a bit when they’re going over your life’s work and I’m not quite there yet. I’d really like to hear His comments on this one.

  • “We reach out to people not ‘like’ us.” … “you really need to get off your self-important high-horse and realize you’re just a sinner like the rest of us and just pray when you face your Creator He’ll be happy with all you’re doing and saying!”

    The irony hurts. It HURRRRRTS.

  • Hi Mark,

    It’s been a while since I visited your site, great post

    Happy New Year

  • People like the one who emailed you are exactly the reason why I became more and more disillusioned with religion.

  • Do you read the site of gentlefootprint?  You might like his posting of Jan. 3rdl

  • RYC: you fell in love with chicken schmaltz?

    Now I feel sorry for you too.

    : )

    Hey, send me your IM name.

  • oh, i like you.  we have similar histories.

    fundamentalism: exclusion masquerading as religion

  • Don’t you just love it when someone else makes your point for you? 

    xoxoxo

  • I’ve been waiting for this installment and it’s wonderfully written. You ought to include it in the second edition of the Grownup Book Project. It’s that good.

    I see nothing “high-horse” about your essay at all. You sound extremely humble. The reality just broke through all the lies and you started to think for yourself. If that’s being arrogant, then they’ve come up with a new definition for the word.

    I was brought up Episcopalian (VERY suspect to fundamentalists) and even I questioned a lot of what I was taught. Here’s the difference:Episcopalians are encouraged to ask questions and seek out other paths. The feeling is that they will come back, and most do. I find myself on the fence, because I believe in some things that the church does not–but the gnostic Chrisitians (who were booted out of the Church by the Romans) do believe. But as an Episcopalian priest told me, “You can still believe these things and be a Christian. We are not into dogma, and we don’t tell you what to do.”
    That’s the kind of religion I can relate to. Plus, I like the high church ritual and the music is beautiful.

    Another thing. There’s a huge difference between being religious and being spiritual. Rare people combine the two, but most use religion as a prop without examining and reading about the spirituality that the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE experiences. So, yes, you can be Buddhist and go to whatever your conception of heaven is. No, unbaptised babies don’t go to limbo. And definitely, born-agains aren’t the only ones who are saved. They are the arrogant ones for thinking this way.

    Thanks so much for giving me a little chance to vent. Your essay was marvelous.

    Lynn

  • Mark, I am just starting on my journey to find out where I belong in the religious scheme of things. The more I look into where my beliefs came from the more I realize they were never my beliefs. They were force fed to me from church. It is amazing to actually read the bible and discover God’s words. Not the same crap the church tries to heave upon the masses so they can feel better about themselves. Your anonymous emailer has either never questioned their faith or they do actually attend a bible loving, christ worshiping church. If it is the latter, Congratulations, because every church I have ever been in is full of people. And just like AE said “your a sinner just like the rest of US”. That is everybody including the masked emailer who wants to remain anonymous. Way to stand up for your faith. Does he think Jesus didn’t have doubts? I seem to remember him sweating blood in the garden and yelling at the apostles that were sleeping. That doesn’t exactly sound like joy for his ministry to me. But hey lets all drink the kool-aid and assume that the whole world is going to hell.

  • p.s.

    in case your wondering who I am. I am Charessa’s husband Jonathan. I wish we had gotten to talk more the few times we have met. Your blog is great, can’t wait to read more.

  • “I’ve been told that it’s impossible to be a Christian and be a liberal. For me, it would be impossible to be a Christian and be anything else.” …I couldn’t agree with you more. Jesus himself was a liberal! That’s why the Pharasees had Him crucified…He was teaching the simple basics of LOVE. Religion has absolutely nothing to do with spirituality…and far more to do with politics. Christ didn’t come here to start a new religion…He came to open our hearts.

  • WOW OH WOW!!!! Mark, I hadn’t read your site in a while so I thought I would get caught up and I got to this post and MAN!…I don’t know if you remember, but I told you that my brother John had just left the ministry (youth pastor) this past June after 14 years in it….that I was concerned for him and wondered how you found your path back in….

    I so identify with so much that you say….if someone wants to bother reading what some fondumental Christians are capable of doing, just read my post about attending my fathers Christmas Cantata and how my little boy was treated there  http://www.xanga.com/akbo1955/404189634/item.html , I am so torn with the church I grew up in and my feeling that we are not doing enough to include everyone….I work so hard trying not to judge, but I fail miserably most of the time…I see oddles of dollars collected for the 2 million dollar organ for the church and I wonder WHY does the church need a 2 million dollar organ, wouldn’t that money be better spent for the people that live on streets near the church and don’t have anywhere to live or food to eat?…I read the story about the minister in Buena Park that was fired by his congregation because he opened the church up to the homeless during the last storm front and set up a soup kitchen…the congregation did not like “those” people coming on their property?!?….  I LOVED this line..Faith embraces tolerance. Religion abhors it. Faith can acknowledge theological differences. Religion labels people as heretics and infidels   No truer words were ever written!

    As for the e-mail you got….it was great that you used it as “exhibit #1″, how odd that he did not want his name known…if he honestly believes what he wrote, why not have the gutts to stand up and be counted?…I have no qualms doing that…Alicia Ondo

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